Wednesday, September 16, 2009

Amway - Are You Broke Or A Loser?

LOL, one of the classic "tapespeak" lines that IBOs use is to call someone a broke loser if they do not join Amway or if they are critical of the Amway opportunity. Rich DeVos, co-founder and owner of Amway once made a speech where he discouraged this kind of behavior. But apparently, upline leaders continue to use that term or possibly teach it at functions. How else would newbie IBOs learn something like this?

What I find humorous in this is that IBOs often join Amway because they are in need of more cash! It is often the IBOs who are seeking easy wealth, or at least a "shortcut" to retirement and lifelong residual income. It is how the business if often pitched to potential recruits. Whenever an IBO tells me that his sponsor talks about how Amway is hard work that they will not get rich quickly, I ask them why they joined if that wasn't the case?

My former upline used to talk about how you need to control time and money in your life to achieve balance. And control of time and money is the ultimate prize to many aspiring IBOs. They believe that if they achieve diamond, they will wake up at noon every day, not have to work, and live in the lap of luxury. What is ironic is that while most active (system) IBOs are seeking more time and money, time and money is what they have less of because of their business particpation and business expenses (cds, tapes, books, voicemail, seminars/functions). Looking at the 6-4-2 plan, the majority of those active IBOs will earn less than $15 a month but will have expenses ranging from $150 to $500 a month for the system, depending on their dedication.

So as an IBO who is recruiting potential downline, if you decide to call someone broke or a loser, maybe you need to look in the mirror first? :-)

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

Do you have a mirror? If so, did you personally use it before posting this article?

Joecool said...

LOL, I'm not calling anyone a broke loser for not joining Amway.

mrmaximum said...

So, what would someone call a person who joins amway then? IBO's call themselves 'winners' of course getting involved with Amway and all as opposed to the rest of the broke losers who say no.

Here is the deal, if you want to make anyone feel bad for not joining Amway, then it has to be proven that it works and NOT to join is indeed foolhardy. You know, like not investing in Sisco Systems years ago when it was a cheap deal and such.

Since it's even hard for IBO's to disprove that Amway isn't anything but a losing proposition, joining seems like the foolhardy step to make. There is a reason why IBO's are sometimes called "Kool Aid" drinkers.

Joecool said...

Mr Maximum,

Not to mention, even if Amway was a good opportunity (bt it's not), why do you need to call people losers for not joining?

Anonymous said...

When people apply for a job, they usually submit a résumé. The potential employee calls referrals, interviews the prospect –more than once, sometimes—hires the prospect for a trying period and then for a longer term. If the employer doesn’t like something in any of those stages, he terminates the relationship.

In a MLM company nobody asks questions; anybody can join. And when people join, nobody fires you (except in rare circumstances). Through the open door sometimes enter people with no moral values, no work ethics, no education, no manners, no vision… the list goes on. These types of people give MLM companies a bad name because they do things the wrong way. Responsible MLM leaders are then left with the job of cleaning up after the mess.

In order for MLM companies to make a profit they need associates who do things right. So, to achieve that goal, they implement strong educational programs that can –in a sense—turn a frog into a prince. A high priority of those programs is working in people’s attitude: you mentioned that Rich DeVos, co-founder and owner of Amway once made a speech where he discouraged this kind of behavior (call someone a broke loser).

Usually nobody goes up the latter doing things the wrong way so, the MLM system is one that acts like a filter, where people who are not fitted end up leaving (like the ones who call others broke losers). Only those with the right attitude, the capacity to –really—learn, the capacity for change, adaptation and grow, only those with discipline and perseverance get to stay and move up the latter.

So, in order to judge MLM companies and leaders, it is suggested to observe the character of leaders who have succeeded, not just any ”upline” who hasn’t climbed the latter very far.

Needless to say, you won’t be able to judge in a very accurate manner an MLM company, or its leaders, by the comments and opinions of people who joined and then decided to leave; those are the frogs. It is better to listen to the advice of people who have succeeded (the Prince).

mrmaximum said...

Very well thought out and well worded, but unfortunately there are quite a few things missing or misrepresented. Yes anyone can join an MLM, just like anyone can join or start their own business. This is why we have things like Consumer Reports to flush out the people or businesses who earnestly want to service their customer with good products and good service as opposed to those who only want to make money and care little about how they do it. Let’s continue on with the Frog and Prince example shall we?

So the quitters are the frogs and the successful leaders are the Princes, which does indeed make sense, we want to follow in the footsteps of the people who have gotten where we want to go, yeah? When someone wants to make an educated business decision, they can check third parties to verify what has been stated by the entity they wish to join. This is a very prudent move to do before starting a business as not all industries thrive in all markets for a plethora of reasons. This happens all the time in other industries and also, depending on the business, third parties are mandated by law. As an example, the company I work for has an in-house lab which runs environmental samples from one of our clients. They BY LAW are not allowed to run their own samples in their lab and submit their own results to the governing body, this would be a conflict of interest. We’ve all seen where this can lead, Enron had no third parties, need we say more?

So, as an enterprising business owner, you then look at all the facts which are presented to you, of course by the Princes, then by other Third Parties if one is smart, then maybe even a few frogs, just to ascertain a ‘worst case scenario’ if you will. Where there “Princes” in Amway who took advantage of their position? We all know that this is true, as for them being kicked out and the abuse stopped, well, not so sure about that one. In fact, if you look at certain videos which have been leaked from Amway, and hear what Ibo’s are still saying when they prospect, one can easily tell that the same falsehoods and attitudes are present and in use. Anyone who doesn’t join is still a loser, and success is still very much guaranteed if you simply follow the system. Seems like the current Princes are still using the same tactics which Rich De Vos opposed from the looks of it.

mrmaximum said...

Here’s the rub, there are other “Princes” in other industries and businesses. You will have supporters and detractors no matter how good, how savvy, and how much you bend over backwards to please your customer, this is unfortunately a sad reality of life. However, no other businesses, or Princes shall we say, have the same amount of frogs that Amway does, why is that? If the system was so powerful, it listening to the Princes was all what was needed because of the effectiveness of the system, if ignoring us frogs was the way to go, then why when others who did it before us ‘current frogs’ tell us the same negative things before we joined and then quit? Why are the numbers of Princes not increasing, in fact, there is more and more evidence of success declining in Amway; North America than anything else? Why is there such a huge amount of Frogs out there, despite the success system? Are people lazy, of course, some are just upset that they didn’t make it, but what about the rest of them? Not every single Frog out there simply couldn’t do it. What kind of system has a 99% failure rate (this is how many IBO’s reach Platinum) and still be considered a sound business decision?

Even if the Princes where legitimate, even if the products where fairly priced, even if things where all on the up and up, if only 1% reach platinum and less than that reach Diamond, that simply isn’t a sound business decision. Traditional Business frowns on gambling, which is what this is at a basic level. While it’s good to listen to people who are where you want to go, if there is a better chance that you will be reincarnated twice than be successful in their chosen endeavor, and are warned by many frogs that this is most likely the case, it may be more prudent to ignore the Princes then, yeah?

Anonymous said...

I am reading your postings because I have recently been reached by an IBO in Greece-Europe and I am in the stage of filtering information and deciding if this "path"is one I would like to follow. Amway here is presented as a business prospect that can give you quickly an extra income but you need to invest time and effort in order to build a business that will "work for you without you" in the future. It is said to be a turn of your buying pholosophy that will bring money to you. I wasn't pushed by anyone to join and my wanna be IBO told me that they have the principle of 3Ps: Do not Push anyone, Do not Promote, Do not Persuade. Is this the common way to present Amway at US?

Anonymous said...

You should first and foremost look at what you want out of this business opportunity. If you want credible information contact both Amway and The Better Business Bureau. If you do research on The Better Business Bureau's site you will see that Amway has been an acredited member since July of 1979. Blogs can say whatever they want but accurate info you won't find here even if it sounds good. As for your view that time and effort to build a business that will eventually work for you without working as hard in the future as you did on day one, that statement is true. But be careful about how you interpret the "quick income" statement. It doesn't mean overnight success but for some that can be achieved in a month or a year. It can be $100 or $200 but not $100000. $100000 is more appropiate when you built a strong, sustainable business. At that stage it can't be called "quick income". Quick income is small but it won't come without you first putting consistent and persistent effort in. Hope that helped you. Have a nice day!

Joecool said...

LOL, the tired old line about the BBB. Yeah, the better business bureau says Amway handles their complaints satisfactorily. It doesn't endorse Amway nor does it mean that Amway is a good opportunity for anyone.

Try coming up with something new instead of regurgitated tapespeak. LOL

Anonymous said...

YES, I HAVE THE PERFECT STORY TO PROVE YOUR POINT ON HOW BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU MAKES BUSINESS BETTER FOR EVERYONE AND HAPPIER CONSUMERS AS A RESULT OF THAT.

IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD LIVES A GUY NAMED PINKY. HE'S AN AWESOME GUY, LOVED BY THE ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD AND EVEN BY THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE.

PINKY DOES A LOT OF BUSINESS IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. HE SELLS PRODUCTS SUCH AS ACAPULCO GOLD, BEAMERS, CYCLONES, HARD BALL, HIGHBALL, HALF MOON, LOW SUN, VITAMIN K & R, MARIA PASTORA AND SO ON!

GREAT BUSINESS, SHEER POTENTIAL, AWESOME CUSTOMER SERVICE, DAILY HAPPY CUSTOMERS!

THE WORD SPREAD LIKE FIRE ACROSS THE CITY THAT THE COMMUNITY CAME TOGETHER TO CHECK IT OUT! IT WAS WHISCKED OFF ITS FEET, LITERALLY!

EVERYBODY HAS BEEN A HAPPY CUSTOMER EVER SINCE. ALL COMPLAINTS HAVE BEEN FULLY HANDLED TO THIS DAY. PINKY BECAME AN EXEMPLARY ENTREPRENEURIAL MODEL FOR ALL TO SEE! HIS BUSINESS, LISTED AS "PINKY'S PARADISE RESORT" HAS BEEN ACCREDITED BY THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU AND HAS RECEIVED A RATING OF A+, THE HIGHEST ATTAINABLE RATING FOR PROVIDING EXCEPTIONAL BUSINESS AND CUSTOMER SERVICE! HIS BUSINESS HAS EVEN BEEN FEATURED IN THE LOCAL AND NATIONAL NEWSPAPERS WHICH HAVE DESCRIBED PINKY AS "AN OUTSTANDING MEMBER OF THE COMMUNITY DEEPLY CONCERNED WITH THE NEEDS OF HIS FELLOW COMMUNITY MEMBERS". HE HAS EVEN RECEIVED AN AWARD FROM THE LOCAL POLICE FORCE FOR BEING "AN EXEMPLARY ROLE MODEL CITIZEN". I DO DAILY BUSINESS WITH PINKY AND HAVE NEVER BEEN UNSATISFIED BY HIS CHARISMA, BUSINESS ACUMEN AND GENUINE COMPASSION FOR ANOTHER HUMAN BEING!

mrmaximum said...

The essence of your argument is that on blogs or sites which are negative about Amway, the critics involved themselves in the business with the wrong intentions originally. That we are obviously incorrect, and the issue was with us of course as the BBB endorses Amway and we obviously wanted to make money quickly and not in a sustained manner.

Fact: the BBB does indeed endorse Amway, NOT the AMO's which IBO's have no choice but to enroll into if they want to be part of the business. Amway has decent customer service, among other things which the BBB verifies, but the money making opportunity itself has not been established by this same governing body. However, there are quite a few court cases in which Amway has been embroiled including quite a bit of bad press.

Fact: While you mention that the full facts cannot be obtained by sites such as this, as most likely, critics are biased to protect out own interests, how about NBC? They did a story on Amway (Quixtar at the time) which essentially echoed what Joe has stated here and many other critics have been saying over the years. They have no prior business with Amway/Quixtar to cover up or blame, they went in to establish the validity of the business opportunity and came away with the same conclusions.

In fact, that wasn't even the first negative news story done on Amway which is why I ask you why is there so much negative if the business worked? Why is it considered a sound business idea just because someone made it before you did? At one point in time, manufacturing plastics was a great way to make money, can that be said now? Because you made millions in plastics decades ago does that mean that I can duplicate your success the same level at this time? As I have said before, one cannot brag about success when you have a system which produces failure en masse.

One can read any third party information on any other business out there and you will find usually more positive or at least 50/50. This cannot be said about Amway no matter how much one may want to flog the BBB angle. If the business did indeed work and was worth its salt, arguments such as the one about the BBB wouldn’t be necessary. There are no blogs debating whether or not the McDonalds business model works, and there aren’t deludes of critics who have been burned by the McDonalds business model either.

Joecool said...

Actually, the BBB doesn't endorse any business. They are a regulatory agency, as is the FTC.

mrmaximum said...

My bad, good point Joe.

Anonymous said...

BBB doesn't endorse a business but it does check the legality of the business. If it passes the test, it becomes an acredited business. That simple.

mrmaximum said...

And as i've said before, the AMO's are not checked by the BBB. You should find that any of the AMO's do not have any BBB seals of approval on any materials which they sell to IBO's. This is a common mistake told to IBO's so upline can legitimize their business.

Anonymous said...

According to you, an IBO's business is already not legit. BBB says otherwise. Thanks, I'll politely ignore your input.

mrmaximum said...

According to me, I'm afraid not, just telling you what you already know. This is the issue with being an IBO, I applaud you for being forthcoming and not resorting to the normal attacking of character that most IBO's use, but the issue is that AMWAY DOESN"T STACK UP EVEN IN A LOGICAL ARGUEMENT. This is why most IBO's attack the messenger, the business simply doesn't stack up like other businesses can.

My man, you can ignore me as much as you want,it simply will not make the facts which I and other critics have stated go away. IBO's have no other choice but to ignore reality when they chose to walk of cliffs like lemmings. Let me break it down for you, kewl? Numbers don't give a damn what they say. They speak whatever truth is sought when they aren't fooled or messed around with. Here are some numbers and stats for you;

1% of all IBO's make platinum

Less than 1% go diamond

Most diamonds cannot maintain their level once they have achieved it

And most importantly; The North American Amway business apparenly seems to be in decline.

You can ignore me as much as you want; it's similar to ignoring your Dr's warning about smoking or tanning in the sun. When you get burned...and you will, then you will be sitting there wondering why you got bamboozled in the first place.

You aren't the first IBO to say you will be different. Let me say that again so you comprehend what I'm saying.

You aren't the first IBO to say that you will go Diamond to prove us critics wrong. Why do I say that....because I SAID THAT years ago. Look up some of Joe's old posts, you will see that he and others post of two former IBO's one who I belive called himself "Going Crown". Know where they are now....NOT DIAMOND OR CROWN.

The facts are in, the fix has already been put into play and has been played out for many, many years now. Critics already know the ending as many of us have been in that very place before, we will be here to assist anyone who needs it when the bloom comes off the rose however and for anyone who requires an explanation as to why a business would continually tell their faithful that 1+1=11 when they damn well know that it only equals 2.

Anonymous said...

do you have a brain? if so, did you personally use it before posting that *cough* bullshit *cough* comment? =)